{"id":68003,"date":"2006-09-18T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2006-09-18T00:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/2006\/09\/18\/lotan-tue-beaucoup-en-afghanistan-est-ce-bien-judicieux\/"},"modified":"2006-09-18T00:00:00","modified_gmt":"2006-09-18T00:00:00","slug":"lotan-tue-beaucoup-en-afghanistan-est-ce-bien-judicieux","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/2006\/09\/18\/lotan-tue-beaucoup-en-afghanistan-est-ce-bien-judicieux\/","title":{"rendered":"L’OTAN tue beaucoup en Afghanistan\u2026 Est-ce bien judicieux ?<\/em><\/strong>"},"content":{"rendered":"

L’OTAN tue beaucoup en Afghanistan Est-ce bien judicieux ?<\/h2>\n<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

\t18 septembre 2006 L’offensive de l’OTAN contre les talibans (op\u00e9ration Medusa<\/em>) se d\u00e9roule de fa\u00e7on assez singuli\u00e8re, pr\u00e9cis\u00e9ment dans le domaine \u00e9videmment essentiel aujourd’hui de la pr\u00e9sentation qui en est faite et de la perception qu’on en a. D’une part, les pertes inflig\u00e9es aux talibans sont, par rapport aux normes de la Grande Guerre contre la Terreur (GWOT en anglo-am\u00e9ricaniste), pr\u00e9sent\u00e9es comme extr\u00eamement impressionnantes (plus de 500 tu\u00e9s chez les talibans, 517 pr\u00e9cis\u00e9ment selon le chiffre officiel OTAN). D’autre part, la situation de l’OTAN est si critique que le g\u00e9n\u00e9ral Jones (SACEUR, commandant en chef des forces de l’OTAN) r\u00e9clame d’urgence (le 8 septembre) 2.500 hommes. Les commentaires faits \u00e0 cette occasion sont pleins de perspectives catastrophiques sur l’issue de ce qui est d\u00e9sormais consid\u00e9r\u00e9 comme une guerre, et notamment de perspectives catastrophiques pour la coh\u00e9sion de l’OTAN.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tPr\u00e9sentant une d\u00e9p\u00eache AP du 15 septembre<\/a>, le Seattle Post-Intelligence<\/em> se penche sur la question de ce d\u00e9compte des pertes des talibans. Le th\u00e8me de l’article concerne le scepticisme que soul\u00e8vent ces chiffres de pertes, pas tant pour le volume de ces pertes que pour l’identit\u00e9 des tu\u00e9s.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00abNATO’s estimate of Taliban killed this month has created skepticism and worry in Afghanistan, with local officials saying that either the militant force has grown bigger than imagined or too many innocent Afghans are being killed.<\/em> [] If they kill that many, the Taliban must have thousands of fighters on that front, said Mohammed Arbil, a former Northern Alliance commander. In the recent past, Taliban units have been described in terms of dozens or hundreds at most.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tLes doutes concernant les pertes des talibans ont conduit l’OTAN \u00e0 r\u00e9agir avec fermet\u00e9, \u00e0 affirmer que son action est pr\u00e9cise et que les talibans tu\u00e9s sont bien des talibans. La r\u00e9plique est aussi vive. La pol\u00e9mique fait rage. \u00abNATO says the high toll is due to its superior firepower, including fighter jets and artillery, compared to the Taliban militia’s roadside bombs and assault rifles. It says it avoids civilian casualties by warning residents to evacuate. The inability of journalists to reach the area has made it virtually impossible to check the figures.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00abHundreds of families displaced from the war zone, in the Panjwayi district, are also in the dark, and don’t even know if their homes are still standing. The onslaught has dispelled any doubts that NATO, which recently took over in southern Afghanistan, is willing to use overwhelming military force. But Afghans, while eager for the Taliban uprising to end, have mixed feelings.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00abIn the capital Kabul, there’s disbelief that so many guerrillas could be killed and citizens escape unscathed. In Kandahar city, closer to the battle, there’s dismay over the intensity of the fighting, and calls for peace talks. Who are these Taliban? They are Afghans, said Mira Jan, a displaced 42-year-old grape farmer from Panjwayi.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tDans le m\u00eame article, l’expert Andrew Krepinevich donne son appr\u00e9ciation sur cette pol\u00e9mique. Elle consiste \u00e0 dire que la question des chiffres de pertes n’a pas beaucoup d’importance.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00abAndrew Krepinevich, a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments in Washington, said that given the circumstances in which the Taliban had massed in one place, the figures given by NATO were plausible and could well be an underestimation, because of the effort the Islamic militia makes to bury their dead quickly.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00bbHe also said that given NATO’s aim to create secure zones, they had little incentive to inflate the death toll.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00bbI have no suspicion they are trying to widely inflate the casualty numbers. They are not trying to measure success that way anyway, Krepinevich said in a telephone interview. They would be trying to measure success in terms of the population feeling secure, is reconstruction proceeding, is commerce growing.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n

Un taliban est-il un Afghan, et vice-versa?<\/h3>\n<\/p>\n

\tCette querelle sur les pertes des talibans n’est pas indiff\u00e9rente, malgr\u00e9 l’avis de Krepinevich. Ce dernier, expert r\u00e9put\u00e9 \u00e0 Washington, se place du strict point de vue de la raison et des communiqu\u00e9s officiels. La mission de l’OTAN \u00e9tant de regrouper les populations, d’assurer leur s\u00e9curit\u00e9, de faire rena\u00eetre une vie normale (bien entendu d\u00e9mocratique, lib\u00e9rale et \u00e9ventuellement am\u00e9ricanis\u00e9e), la question des pertes des talibans est jug\u00e9e secondaire. C’est une bonne mani\u00e8re d’\u00e9carter le probl\u00e8me ou encore, selon les termes fameux d’un g\u00e9n\u00e9ral am\u00e9ricain, d’\u00e9craser le probl\u00e8me.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tLa r\u00e9alit\u00e9 est toute autre. La question des pertes est tr\u00e8s importante, ne serait-ce que, m\u00eame si cela d\u00e9pla\u00eet \u00e0 Krepinevich, pour la raison que nous sommes pass\u00e9s d’une mission de r\u00e9tablissement de la paix \u00e0 une mission de guerre. Dans ce cadre, effectivement, il devient important de savoir qui<\/strong> on tue. La phrase cit\u00e9e dans l’extrait ci-dessus (\u00abWho are these Taliban? They are Afghans, said Mira Jan, a displaced 42-year-old grape farmer from Panjwayi<\/em>\u00bb) r\u00e9sume bien le probl\u00e8me.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tLa description de l’action de l’OTAN renforce encore ce m\u00eame probl\u00e8me. Prise au pi\u00e8ge d’une campagne f\u00e9roce, dans des conditions impr\u00e9vues, l’OTAN utilise la seule chose qu’elle a: la puissance de feu. On tue donc beaucoup. Krepinevich, encore lui, va jusqu’\u00e0 dire que les pertes des talibans sont encore plus importantes qu’annonc\u00e9es parce que ces memes talibans enterrent leurs morts. Voici donc le spectacle que nous pr\u00e9sentent l’expert et les communiqu\u00e9s de l’OTAN: une OTAN massacrant des talibans \u00e0 tour de bras, les \u00e9crasant sous le feu, les talibans enterrant leurs morts sous le feu otanien avant de s’enfuir (ou de mourir eux-m\u00eames). L’expert ajout\u00e9 \u00e0 la communication de l’OTAN nous offre une description digne des studios de Disney. En attendant, Jones demande 2.500 hommes de plus d’urgence, sans doute pour enterrer les talibans morts que les talibans vivants n’ont pu enterrer sous le feu de l’OTAN. Et ainsi de suite.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tBien. Quelles pourraient \u00eatre les r\u00e9alit\u00e9s? Les assurances techniques de l’OTAN aujourd’hui martel\u00e9es sur l’identification des morts talibans (jusqu’\u00e0 leurs noms, sans doute?) avaient \u00e9t\u00e9 d\u00e9crites de cette fa\u00e7on il y a une dizaine de jours:<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00abWhen NATO announced by the second day of the offensive that its artillery and airstrikes had killed more than 200 militants, skeptical journalists without access to the action following a government warning that anyone straying off the main road could be shot as suspected Taliban pressed for details: where were the bodies and how are they counted?<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00bbYour know what you can see through a telescope? We have those kind of capabilities all over the battle field, said NATO spokesman Maj. Scott Lundy. We are reliant on every soldier on the battlefield to feed up the information that they have, from what they have seen through weapons’ sights and with other surveillance assets. It all gets thrown into the mix.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\t\u00bbLundy said such estimates are imprecise, but stressed that NATO makes every effort to make them as accurate as possible and usually goes with a conservative number. We would be quite happy to speak about military success without going into the detail, but it’s what the media want, he said.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tLe tableau se pr\u00e9cise donc. Press\u00e9e dans une bataille totalement impr\u00e9vue, l’OTAN fait usage de toute sa puissance de feu et provoque des pertes consid\u00e9rables. Certainement on doit y trouver des talibans, mais d’abord, et en plus grand nombre bien entendu, des Afghans civils qui n’ont rien \u00e0 voir dans cette bataille. Bien entendu, cette sorte de victoire a comme premier r\u00e9sultat de gonfler les rangs des talibans bien au-del\u00e0 de toutes les pertes que leur inflige l’OTAN.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tLes conditions actuelles de la guerre en Afghanistan sont les pires qu’on puisse imaginer pour les Occidentaux. Mais ce sont les conditions habituelles d\u00e9sormais, d’une guerre dict\u00e9e par les conceptions am\u00e9ricanistes. Le r\u00e9sultat ne peut aller que vers le pire du pire. Plut\u00f4t que d’\u00eatre \u00e9ventuellement battues ici ou l\u00e0, les forces arm\u00e9es occidentales, intoxiqu\u00e9es par les perverses m\u00e9thodes am\u00e9ricanistes, sont d\u00e9sormais totalement incapables de remporter la moindre victoire.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

\tNous allons donc d\u00e9sormais vers une sorte de comp\u00e9tition: quand la situation en Afghanistan deviendra-t-elle pire que la situation en Irak? Certains jugent que c’est d\u00e9j\u00e0 fait.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

L’OTAN tue beaucoup en Afghanistan Est-ce bien judicieux ? 18 septembre 2006 L’offensive de l’OTAN contre les talibans (op\u00e9ration Medusa) se d\u00e9roule de fa\u00e7on assez singuli\u00e8re, pr\u00e9cis\u00e9ment dans le domaine \u00e9videmment essentiel aujourd’hui de la pr\u00e9sentation qui en est faite et de la perception qu’on en a. D’une part, les pertes inflig\u00e9es aux talibans sont,… <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[10],"tags":[3236,5902,4394,5522],"class_list":["post-68003","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-faits-et-commentaires","tag-afghanistan","tag-medusa","tag-pertes","tag-taliban"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/68003","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=68003"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/68003\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=68003"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=68003"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=68003"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}