{"id":74665,"date":"2012-04-24T10:24:59","date_gmt":"2012-04-24T10:24:59","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/2012\/04\/24\/message-du-ps-a-la-russie\/"},"modified":"2012-04-24T10:24:59","modified_gmt":"2012-04-24T10:24:59","slug":"message-du-ps-a-la-russie","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/2012\/04\/24\/message-du-ps-a-la-russie\/","title":{"rendered":"Message du PS \u00e0 la Russie"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><h3 class=\"titrebloc\">Message du PS \u00e0 la Russie<\/h3>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\tA la suite du premier tour des pr\u00e9sidentielles fran\u00e7aises, il faut commencer \u00e0 \u00eatre attentif aux signaux et messages envoy\u00e9s par les uns et les autres \u00e0 destination de l&rsquo;\u00e9tranger. Un texte int\u00e9ressant \u00e0 cet \u00e9gard, autant par la chronologie que par son contenu, que par le destinataire de l&rsquo;intervention, c&rsquo;est une interview du porte-parole du PS, et donc du candidat Hollande, Benoit Hamon dans <em>Russia Today<\/em> du <a href=\"http:\/\/rt.com\/news\/france-hollande-challenges-hamon-701\/\" class=\"gen\">23 avril 2012<\/a>. Cet int\u00e9r\u00eat se situe dans le fait que le texte est publi\u00e9 par un m\u00e9dia \u00e9tranger, et qu&rsquo;il implique le porte-parole du candidat et non le candidat lui-m\u00eame ; c&rsquo;est donc le type de texte qui est le plus \u00e9loign\u00e9 des contingences \u00e9lectorales d&rsquo;ici le deuxi\u00e8me tour (crainte des effets sur l&rsquo;opinion, crainte d&rsquo;impliquer le candidat lui-m\u00eame) ; c&rsquo;est donc le type de texte qui se rapproche le plus possible de l&rsquo;\u00e9tat de la pens\u00e9e socialiste \u00e0 cet \u00e9gard, pour le temps pr\u00e9sent qui est l&rsquo;entre deux tours, et dans la perspective d&rsquo;une victoire de Hollande (ce qui n&rsquo;est \u00e9videmment nullement un fait acquis et reste au niveau de l&rsquo;hypoth\u00e8se,  et c&rsquo;est dans l&rsquo;esprit de cette perspective seulement comme hypoth\u00e8se qu&rsquo;est d\u00e9velopp\u00e9 ce commentaire).<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\tNous reprenons ici essentiellement les passages portant sur la politique ext\u00e9rieure, laissant de c\u00f4t\u00e9 les habituels sujets de politique int\u00e9rieure qui ressortent bien entendu du discours-Syst\u00e8me avec son emprisonnement. Le seul champ d&rsquo;int\u00e9r\u00eat est la politique ext\u00e9rieure puisqu&rsquo;il s&rsquo;agit du champ o\u00f9, par d\u00e9finition, les acteurs ne ma\u00eetrisent pas les \u00e9v\u00e8nements, o\u00f9 ils sont donc plac\u00e9s devant des incertitudes (beaucoup) et devant des choix (difficiles) ; et le champ o\u00f9,  et c&rsquo;est la <strong>grande nouveaut\u00e9<\/strong>,  le Syst\u00e8me ne ma\u00eetrisent <strong>plus<\/strong> d\u00e9sormais ces m\u00eames \u00e9v\u00e8nements dans le sens de l&rsquo;efficacit\u00e9 et de l&rsquo;organisation productive \u00e0 son avantage.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>RT<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>So you&rsquo;re talking about redefining or reestablishing France&rsquo;s role and influence in Europe. You bring up the treaty. Francois Hollande does want to renegotiate the fiscal pact agreed upon by EU leaders. But how much leverage does he really have? He&rsquo;s going to go up against German Chancellor Angela Merkel and, let&rsquo;s be frank, what she wants usually plays a very important role in EU decision-making.<\/em>\u00bb <\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>Benoit Hamon<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>His message is clear. If the treaty is not renegotiated, France will not ratify it, and therefore, it cannot come into force. If Merkel wants to impose fiscal discipline in the eurozone area, we will require a growth measure in the treaty. Where now, there is none. We want to make progress on Eurobonds. We want to expand the role of the European Central Bank.<\/em> <\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t\u00bb<em>There is no question for us that we would not accept a treaty that would result in austerity measures in France, and throughout Europe at the same time. Most of our growth is related to trade within the EU. If the French cannot buy and companies cannot invest because of austerity policies, then our neighbors can neither buy nor invest either because they too practice austerity. We believe that Merkel is prepared to hear that. We are simply saying that the treaty cannot proceed only under the terms of Germany&rsquo;s economy. In fact, this treaty does not benefit the Italian economy, nor the Spanish, nor the French economy.<\/em>\u00bb [] <\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>RT<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>Let&rsquo;s talk about NATO and France&rsquo;s participation in its campaigns in various countries. Now Francois Hollande wants to withdraw more troops from Afghanistan earlier than planned, however he doesn&rsquo;t want to withdraw, pull out France completely from NATO.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>Benoit Hamon<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>Regarding NATO, we want to evaluate the decision made by Nicolas Sarkozy to rejoin the integrated military command of NATO. We are not sure that our reintegration into the military command has had the expected results. Above all, what we regret is that there has been no strong initiative of France in favor of a genuine European defense system for five years.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t\u00bb<em>We do not believe today that European defense, and protection of the broader strategic interests of Europe and the European Union, can be supported only by NATO. We consider it necessary to develop autonomous structures. That&rsquo;s why we insist on developing a European Defense. We will evaluate the benefits and drawbacks involved with the return to the integrated military command of NATO. And I&rsquo;ll add, as you said, in connection with our allies, so as not to destabilize NATO in Afghanistan, we will withdraw our troops from Afghanistan before the end of 2012.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>RT<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>So you want to reassess France&rsquo;s participation and Francois Hollande wants more cooperation in this European Defense System. However, by pulling out troops from Afghanistan earlier than planned, wouldn&rsquo;t that sour relationships with Britain, or Germany for example, who are investing a lot in that effort?<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>Benoit Hamon<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>Our analysis is that our military intervention is not able to add a value that allows a peaceful solution of the crisis and the conflict in Afghanistan. By our military intervention there, we lost our ability to act on political and diplomatic levels. We want to regain freedom and room to maneuver politically and diplomatically in order to find a political solution together with major regional players in the conflict.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t\u00bb<em>That requires first to withdraw our troops from Afghanistan. We believe that a military solution is doomed to deadlock. We do not believe that the solution to the conflict in Afghanistan requires a military-only approach, otherwise we would have resolved this conflict already. The last synchronized attacks by the Taliban in many parts of Afghanistan show that there is no longer any area in Afghanistan today that is truly protected. France and Europe must find ways to influence the immediate neighbors of Afghanistan, the large regional players, in order to find a political solution to the Afghan conflict. A military operation must one day come to an end and we think it is now time for that.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>RT<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>So you talk of political solutions here. Does that apply as well to Syria for example?<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>Benoit Hamon<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>Syria is on the edge of civil war. The proof is that, despite the Annan plan, there are still dozens and dozens of deaths, hundreds of deaths. I want to come to talk about the role of Russia in this matter. By its place in the Security Council and through the role it can play with the Syrian regime, Russia is in a key position to unlock the Syrian situation and avoid a bloodbath and civil war. Both at levels of bilateral Franco-Russian relations and on the level of the EU-Russia relationship  we want a rich, intense association with Russia. We also want its role on the international scene to contribute to stability.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t\u00bb<em>We can understand the historical relations of the Russian state with the Syrian state. But today, Bashar al-Assad is a destabilizing factor in his country but also the whole region, we must respond in a concerted and coordinated way between Russia, the European Union, France and permanent members of the Security Council. Can a Military intervention go through NATO in Syria? At this point, it seems premature. And this is why the plan by Kofi Annan opened the possibility of a political solution with the involvement of observers. In fact, considering the number of observers who will go there, and the difficulty in verifying whether or not atrocities are committed against civilians, there should be a strong force in place to ensure that observers really do observe what happens.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>RT<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>But France played a very big and central role in the Libyan intervention.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t<strong><em>Benoit Hamon<\/em><\/strong>: \u00ab<em>In Libya, we played two different roles. At one point, Nicolas Sarkozy wanted to sell nuclear power plants to Gaddafi, then he bombed Gaddafi. When you are a friend of Nicolas Sarkozy, always be wary!  It shows the completely incoherent nature of Nicolas Sarkozy&rsquo;s foreign policy.<\/em> <\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t\u00bb<em>I think the intervention in Libya was necessary because Gaddafi used its armed forces and bombs against his own people. But that does not mean that the situation is now stabilized. We observe that the movement of weapons in the Sahel region is linked to the consequences of the conflict in Libya. This helped to arm groups linked to AQIM (Al-Qaeda in Islamic Maghreb). Some of the events in Mali are related to what happened in Libya. Therefore, we need stabilization policies, growth and development. Here too, France has intervened to help end the Gaddafi regime.<\/em>\u00bb<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\tEt le moins qu&rsquo;on puisse dire est qu&rsquo;il s&rsquo;agit d&rsquo;un discours flottant, incertain, et par cons\u00e9quent tr\u00e8s prudent. Cela, au moins, nous change des affirmations p\u00e9remptoires du pr\u00e9sident fran\u00e7ais actuel, dans le sens de l&rsquo;erreur syst\u00e9matique et \u00e0 l&rsquo;avantage syst\u00e9matique (!) du Syst\u00e8me. On peut \u00e9videmment aussit\u00f4t reprocher aux socialistes, et avec raison, ce flottement, cette incertitude et cette prudence, si l&rsquo;on cultive soi-m\u00eame une pens\u00e9e claire \u00e0 cet \u00e9gard. Mais on ne peut s&rsquo;en tenir l\u00e0, \u00e0 notre sens. Au contraire, ce flou de la pens\u00e9e est un avantage certain, dans la mesure o\u00f9, justement, il nous d\u00e9marque de la perspective grossi\u00e8re et chauss\u00e9e de bottes clout\u00e9es du dynamisme exceptionnel de la persistance dans l&rsquo;erreur de Sarko. Il d\u00e9note une certaine vuln\u00e9rabilit\u00e9 d&rsquo;un \u00e9ventuel pr\u00e9sident Hollande aux tensions et aux pressions ext\u00e9rieures,  dont certaines sont aujourd&rsquo;hui indiscutablement antiSyst\u00e8me, comme l&rsquo;action de la Russie que Hamon c\u00e9l\u00e8bre sans que nous soyons assur\u00e9, c&rsquo;est le moins qu&rsquo;on puisse en dire, qu&rsquo;il l&rsquo;ait tr\u00e8s bien comprise ; mais l&rsquo;essentiel, dans ce cas, c&rsquo;est que la Russie est d\u00e9sign\u00e9e comme une r\u00e9f\u00e9rence, ce qui implique une influence, consciente ou pas de la part de celui qui la re\u00e7oit, de la politique de cette puissance.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t Il y a deux volets dans les r\u00e9ponses d&rsquo;Hamon : un volet formel, portant sur les engagements par trait\u00e9s, sur la position fran\u00e7aise vis-\u00e0-vis du trait\u00e9 des Lisbonne, vis-\u00e0-vis des structures de l&rsquo;OTAN, etc. Comme on le comprend, il s&rsquo;agit du niveau des engagements \u00e9lectoraux et cela porte sur des mati\u00e8res o\u00f9 ces engagements peuvent largement \u00eatre interpr\u00e9t\u00e9s, c&rsquo;est-\u00e0-dire d\u00e9form\u00e9s, \u00e9ventuellement r\u00e9duits \u00e0 n\u00e9ant. Ce jugement sceptique se nuance dans le cas du trait\u00e9 de Lisbonne, o\u00f9 il y a un engagement assez pr\u00e9cis\u00e9, qui rendra tr\u00e8s difficile de faire passer la chose compl\u00e8tement \u00e0 la trappe de l&rsquo;\u00e9dulcoration post-\u00e9lectorale. Du c\u00f4t\u00e9 de l&rsquo;OTAN, la mati\u00e8re des engagements est compl\u00e8tement incertaine<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\tAussi n&rsquo;est-ce pas du point de vue des engagements eux-m\u00eames qu&rsquo;il faut attendre quelque chose d&rsquo;int\u00e9ressant dans l&rsquo;hypoth\u00e8se d&rsquo;un pr\u00e9sident Hollande, mais du point de vue des r\u00e9actions. D&rsquo;une fa\u00e7on g\u00e9n\u00e9rale, le Syst\u00e8me surpuissant cultive une hantise infinie, correspondant \u00e0 sa tendance autodestructrice, de toute interf\u00e9rence dans sa course folle. Le Syst\u00e8me, dans ses tendances successives qui empruntent \u00e0 ses divers composants, r\u00e9agit vis-\u00e0-vis de la France selon le sentiment de la composante anglo-saxconne : un soup\u00e7on infini et haineux. Cela s&rsquo;appliquait \u00e0 Sarko quand il est arriv\u00e9 en 2007 ; aujourd&rsquo;hui, Sarko est port\u00e9 aux nues et le r\u00e9flexe du soup\u00e7on infini et haineux s&rsquo;est port\u00e9 sur Hollande. D&rsquo;o\u00f9, d\u00e9j\u00e0, des r\u00e9actions exacerb\u00e9es des march\u00e9s vers la baisse, marqu\u00e9s par l&rsquo;habituelle trouille de ces puissants repr\u00e9sentants de la modernit\u00e9 lib\u00e9rale devant l&rsquo;arriv\u00e9e d&rsquo;un monstre-\u00e9pouvantail. (Voir <em>The Independent<\/em> du <a href=\"http:\/\/www.independent.co.uk\/news\/business\/news\/european-fears-spark-world-market-selloff-7670379.html?printService=print\" class=\"gen\">23 avril 2012<\/a>, o\u00f9 l&rsquo;on voit qu&rsquo;\u00e0 la perspective Hollande s&rsquo;ajoute, sans jeu de mots mais la circonstance vaut le salut, l&rsquo;\u00e9clatement du gouvernement de l&rsquo;exemplaire Hollande, la vraie) Par cons\u00e9quent, l&rsquo;arriv\u00e9e d&rsquo;un \u00e9ventuel pr\u00e9sident Hollande pr\u00e9sente l&rsquo;avantage <strong>objectif<\/strong> d&rsquo;accro\u00eetre le d\u00e9sordre, m\u00e2tin\u00e9 de soup\u00e7on, d&rsquo;inquisition, etc., au sein du Syst\u00e8me. A cet \u00e9gard, les circonstances sont plus favorables en 2012 qu&rsquo;en 2007, puisqu&rsquo;il y a eu entretemps la crise de 2008 et ses suites sans fin. Certains du c\u00f4t\u00e9 de l&rsquo;\u00e9ventuel pr\u00e9sident Hollande (M\u00e9lenchon, Montebourg), dans le nouveau paysage fran\u00e7ais, y trouveraient leur int\u00e9r\u00eat \u00e0 jouer les p\u00e9troleurs qui accro\u00eetraient les tensions et le d\u00e9sordre. (Toutes ces remarques valent pour l&rsquo;UE et pour l&rsquo;OTAN et, d&rsquo;une certaine fa\u00e7on, pour l&rsquo;Afghanistan.)<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\t Il y a un volet conjoncturel, qui porte les remarques sur la Libye et sur la Syrie. Dans ce cas, le discours est compl\u00e8tement contradictoire, marquant les conditions chaotiques des engagements qui r\u00e9pondent aux impulsion irresponsables du <a href=\"http:\/\/www.dedefensa.org\/article-assange_face_au_parti_unique_des_salonards_20_04_2012.html\" class=\"gen\">parti des salonards<\/a>, et les constats alarmistes des d\u00e9g\u00e2ts caus\u00e9s. Il est profond\u00e9ment ironique, en plus d&rsquo;\u00eatre contradictoire jusqu&rsquo;\u00e0 la schizophr\u00e9nie incluse, d&rsquo;entendre un Hamon d\u00e9plorer le d\u00e9sordre post-Kadhafi en Libye, d\u00e9sordre caus\u00e9 par l&rsquo;intervention fran\u00e7aise\/OTAN, etc., pour d\u00e9gommer Kadhafi, en favorisant on sait comment l&rsquo;installation de forces incontr\u00f4l\u00e9es et antagonistes, qui g\u00e9n\u00e8rent en le multipliant <em>ad nauseam<\/em> le susdit d\u00e9sordre post-Kadhafi ; cette apologie de la philosophie du d\u00e9sordre perp\u00e9tuel et de la strat\u00e9gie, non pas d&rsquo;une balle mais d&rsquo;une rafale sans fin qu&rsquo;on se tire dans les pieds, est du plus bel effet. M\u00eame chose pour la Syrie, o\u00f9 le d\u00e9sordre est d\u00e9nonc\u00e9, en recommandant que la n\u00e9gociation politique prenne sa place, et en accusant le seul \u00e9l\u00e9ment stable et l\u00e9gitime de Syrie (m\u00eame si on ne l&rsquo;aime pas, et qu&rsquo;on d\u00e9nonce ses pratiques pour ce qu&rsquo;on en sait, la chose reste un fait) d&rsquo;\u00eatre responsable du d\u00e9sordre que les attaques ext\u00e9rieures contre lui qu&rsquo;on a suscit\u00e9es dans la deuxi\u00e8me phase de la crise ont infiniment aggrav\u00e9 Alors, on se reporte sur la Russie, dont on garantit qu&rsquo;elle r\u00e9soudra le probl\u00e8me en liquidant Assad, ce qui repr\u00e9sente un bel exemple de <a href=\"http:\/\/www.dedefensa.org\/article-le_brics_et_la_syrie_et_le_d_ni_de_r_alit__23_04_2012.html\" class=\"gen\">d\u00e9ni de la r\u00e9alit\u00e9<\/a>.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><p>\tLe seul avantage et le seul jugement clair de ces \u00e9tonnantes gymnastiques c\u00e9r\u00e9brales sont l&rsquo;aboutissement de l&rsquo;analyse, franco de port, sur l&rsquo;apologie de la Russie, avec le souhait \u00e9mouvant d&rsquo;\u00e9tablir \u00ab<em>a rich, intense association with Russia&#8230;<\/em>\u00bb Or, la Russie, elle, sait ce qu&rsquo;il en est en Syrie, et elle sait ce qu&rsquo;elle y veut faire. Si l&rsquo;on veut une relation riche et intense, il faudra donc suivre la Russie, et c&rsquo;est ce qu&rsquo;il peut arriver, sinon de mieux, certainement de moins mauvais Si l&rsquo;on se r\u00e9f\u00e8re \u00e0 certains, qui jugent que l&rsquo;\u00e9ventuel <a href=\"http:\/\/www.dedefensa.org\/article-un_president_hollande_face_au_chaos_et_a_l_anarchie_19_03_2012.html\" class=\"gen\">pr\u00e9sident Hollande<\/a> n&rsquo;aurait gu\u00e8re de go\u00fbt pour cette sorte d&rsquo;aventure de type-Tartarin postmoderne, il devient effectivement possible qu&rsquo;on suive cette voie et qu&rsquo;on s&rsquo;en remette \u00e0 la Russie. Ce serait un gros progr\u00e8s, sinon une \u00e9volution,  comment dit-on ? progressiste, c&rsquo;est cela.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p><\/p>\n<p><p>\tMis en ligne le 24 avril 2012 \u00e0 10H38<\/p><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Message du PS \u00e0 la Russie A la suite du premier tour des pr\u00e9sidentielles fran\u00e7aises, il faut commencer \u00e0 \u00eatre attentif aux signaux et messages envoy\u00e9s par les uns et les autres \u00e0 destination de l&rsquo;\u00e9tranger. Un texte int\u00e9ressant \u00e0 cet \u00e9gard, autant par la chronologie que par son contenu, que par le destinataire de&hellip;&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"neve_meta_sidebar":"","neve_meta_container":"","neve_meta_enable_content_width":"","neve_meta_content_width":0,"neve_meta_title_alignment":"","neve_meta_author_avatar":"","neve_post_elements_order":"","neve_meta_disable_header":"","neve_meta_disable_footer":"","neve_meta_disable_title":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[2631,3356,6261,12739,3203,6902,7157,8057,584,4607,11448,2730,3867,6925,4495],"class_list":["post-74665","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-bloc-notes","tag-de","tag-desordre","tag-etrangere","tag-hamon","tag-hollande","tag-libye","tag-lisbonne","tag-marches","tag-otan","tag-politique","tag-russia","tag-russie","tag-syrie","tag-today","tag-traite"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/74665","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=74665"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/74665\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=74665"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=74665"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/new.dedefensa.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=74665"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}